Abortion–A Medical Procedure or Murder?
Abortion is the number one cause of death in the United States…
The figures below do not count illegal or unreported deaths due to abortions, nor the deaths of mothers because of abortions nor a higher incidence of breast cancer later due to abortions.
Below is a partial list:
Induced abortion 1,508,651
Cardiovascular diseases 948,088
Cancer (all types) 529,904
And the list goes on and on. Every two weeks (14.7 days) there are as many deaths due to induced abortions as there were in the entire Vietnam war. (55,000). Source: CDC 1996
Robert Mobbs wrote:
> Many people in our society enjoy being beaten with blunt objects.
>This hardly makes it universally desirable. Abortion is not murder, nor
>is it immoral. It is a medical procedure for which every woman can and
>should have the right to opt.
At one time you were within the womb of your mother. If she had undergone the “medical procedure” you outline above you wouldn’t be here now, however she didn’t so here you are. Surely if she had undergone the “medical procedure” she would have killed you. It’s not too difficult to understand surely?
> This can be debated, because it cannot be proven. Whether or not
>you would listen is another story.
If you can prove a body can develop and grow without life then go right ahead and prove it. But growth and development are symptoms of life surely?
>At no point was *I* in my mother’s womb. The *body* I
>was *soon* to occupy was.
The soul enters the womb at the time of “conception”. The time of the union between the man and the woman. The embryo cannot grow and change within the mother’s womb without the soul. If the soul leaves the embryo in the womb it “dies” and a stillbirth is the result. Stillbirth means a dead child.. no soul.
If the soul didn’t enter until birth and the child in the womb was a tumor how can you explain eggs? If a bird lays an egg the baby bird develops, completely independently of the mother, within the egg.
The soul, the living force, must be in a fertile egg when a chicken lays it, otherwise how does it grow and change inside the egg? Clearly it has no connection with the mother.. You could develop an artificial incubator and put a fetus in there, it would still grow and develop into a child if you could give it the right nutrients. The womb is just like the nest for the baby birds…
>You say, “At one time you were within the womb of your mother.”
>I say, “Sometime in the future you will be in the grave.”
I will never be in the grave. My body will be in the grave. It will not be growing there, it will be rotting. You can’t compare the rotting body in the grave with the living, growing child in the womb. Every mother knows it. The child is living in her womb. Sometimes he’s happy, sometimes he’s upset. According to the Vedas after the seventh month the child is conscious in the womb, he is aware of his surroundings…
>Will you also be
>living in the grave?
The symptoms of the presence of the soul are growth and consciousness, both are present in the child in the womb, neither are present in the rotting corpse in the grave. Surely you can see the difference?
The presence of the soul in the womb of the mother is required for pregnancy. If there is no soul there is no pregnancy. The mother’s womb provides an environment for the child to develop and the child is nourished directly form the mother’s body.. But the child is a separate person. These things are very clear — anybody can see. If the soul leaves the body during the pregnancy, ie: the embryo dies, then there is a still-birth.
>Where were you a month before your mother became pregnant?
At the time of death, depending on our activities, the soul goes to different places. A sinful man has to go to the court of Yamaraja, the Lord of death, for judgment. He will most probably be sent to hell. A pious person can be promoted to heaven and we can also take birth on this planet again. If one is God conscious at the time of death he can go back home, back to Godhead. So depending upon what we deserve the soul is placed in the womb of the next mother. So one month before I was in the womb of my mother I was living somewhere else. “I”, the soul, am eternal. It is only my body that gets old and dies.
>The name of this newsgroup I read your posting in is
>”alt.BIBLE.prophecy.” The BIBLE in dozens of places describes
>LIFE as being identical with breath;
Yes life and the “airs” are intimately connected. There are different circles of air within the body called “chakras” and these different chakras are the life-airs upon which the soul sits. So there is a connection but these “airs” are present in the embryo in the womb of the mother…
>as breath as life; as starting with
>breath; with life entering with breath (even as through the nostrils);
>and with life departing with the last breath.
Generally at death, for an ordinary person, the “life airs” do leave through the mouth. But they are already there in the child in the womb..
In any case if, as in my original posting, you are within your mother’s womb and I kill the embryo, you are forced to leave that body and suffer for nine months in another woman’s womb. If I kill the embryo you can’t take birth. That is very inconvenient and painful for you and it is a very grave sin for me.
>This is defined and
>described dozens of times in the Bible. Many, many other spiritual and
>religious traditions describe breath as life, where the soul becomes
>conscious through the physical body between birth and death. There are
>many Buddhist sutras that talk of this.
>I assume that you are learned in the Hindu traditions, perhaps
>they are different than Judaic and Christian and Buddhist and other
>scriptures;
Your Christian Bible doesn’t allow you to kill children in their mother’s wombs! I am stunned that you present yourself as a Christian and at the same time try to support such a gross sinful activity by twisting the words of the Bible to suit your own ends…
>I am concerned that you have neither thought this through, read much of
>scriptures of world religions, or have much knowledge of the relation
>between consciousness and life.
I think you need not be concerned for my understanding, but you should consider your own. Nothing can grow and change without the presence of the soul, life. The child within the mother’s womb is a different person. Every mother knows it. As the pregnancy goes on the child starts to move, sometimes he is happy, sometimes he is upset, sometimes he is kicking his mother. Mothers know these things…
The womb is NOT a comfortable place and the child within the womb is fully conscious after seven months. He is aware of his surroundings, he knows why he is there and, if he is a little pious, he prays to God, “Please don’t let me forget You when I take birth…” However birth is a very traumatic experience for the child so he generally forgets everything of his stay in the womb.
> I’ve heard very much to the contrary. The womb is warm, and the
>liquids in which the fetus floats protect it from a great deal of
>shock.
Except, of course when the mother eats something too hot, takes some drugs, drinks alcohol… The effects are multiplied many times for the child in the womb. Would you like to be in that position now? All packed-up in such a small space with the mothers digestive fluids on one side and all the obnoxious stool and urine on the other. There’s plenty of germs there and sometimes even worms…
>That’s why many say birth is traumatic–the little one is
>leaving the warmth and protection of the womb for a cold, overly- >bright (to un-prepared eyes) world.
Birth is _VERY_ traumatic for the child. So traumatic, in fact, that the child forgets everything. Birth means forgetfulness.
>Also, the mother’s heartbeat
>was (at least, at one time), conjectured to be a very comforting
>sound for infants, since that is a sound they can remember from
>the good ol’ days in momma.
Obviously if he can remember his mothers heart-beat he was in his mothers womb before birth! It’s not a tumor there it’s a child!
Outside the womb is relatively comfortable and he is convinced he is the body, “I am an American man,” “I am an Australian woman…” So he dedicates his life to the pursuit of material pleasures….
>I have no memories of the womb, but most of my time in Kentucky is
>not very comfortable. It is RIDICULOUS to have to put up with 40-
>and 50-degree temperatures in May, for example, and I intensely
>dislike it when the temperature gets below the 40’s and worse. Maybe
>outside the womb is comfortable to many others, however.
Anywhere you live in the material world has it’s problems. We are not meant to be here! We are meant to be in the kingdom of God, in the spiritual world. If it was too comfortable here we might never want to leave.. So this world is a frustrating place. It’s designed to be like that…
If your mother kills your body in the womb you can’t get into the material world… You have to continue suffering in different mothers wombs until finally you find one who doesn’t kill your body!
>I just realized something…hmmm, your name, well…perhaps it
>explains your beliefs. However, not everyone agrees with whatever
>you use as an authority, which is evidently spiritual in nature.
>Your religious beliefs are yours, and I do not seek to tell you that
>they are wrong. However, they might be wrong for ME, and possibly
>for the person to whom you responded.
We accept the Vedas, the spiritual books from India. They contain absolute knowledge and are right for everyone. What I have spoken of in this post is common-sense anyhow, anyone can understand it.
It is a very dark and sinful age but I think you can understand what I am saying here…
>No real arguments there. Personally, I’m not sure this is a world
>into which children ought to be brought. It reeks a bit of meanness.
It is mean because we are misers. All living for ourselves. All trying to be God. No one can be happy this way. We can advance materially so much. So many computers, so many color televisions, nice cars… But these things will never make us happy or make the world a nice place.
We have to put God in the center and together we can use all of our different skills and individuality to serve Him. That way we can live in this world cooperatively and happy and after leaving this body we can go back home, back to Godhead. We won’t have to see the inside of another mother’s womb again!
The figures below do not count illegal or unreported deaths due to abortions, nor the deaths of mothers because of abortions nor a higher incidence of breast cancer later due to abortions.
Below is a partial list:
Induced abortion 1,508,651
Cardiovascular diseases 948,088
Cancer (all types) 529,904
And the list goes on and on. Every two weeks (14.7 days) there are as many deaths due to induced abortions as there were in the entire Vietnam war. (55,000). Source: CDC 1996
Robert Mobbs wrote:
> Many people in our society enjoy being beaten with blunt objects.
>This hardly makes it universally desirable. Abortion is not murder, nor
>is it immoral. It is a medical procedure for which every woman can and
>should have the right to opt.
At one time you were within the womb of your mother. If she had undergone the “medical procedure” you outline above you wouldn’t be here now, however she didn’t so here you are. Surely if she had undergone the “medical procedure” she would have killed you. It’s not too difficult to understand surely?
> This can be debated, because it cannot be proven. Whether or not
>you would listen is another story.
If you can prove a body can develop and grow without life then go right ahead and prove it. But growth and development are symptoms of life surely?
>At no point was *I* in my mother’s womb. The *body* I
>was *soon* to occupy was.
The soul enters the womb at the time of “conception”. The time of the union between the man and the woman. The embryo cannot grow and change within the mother’s womb without the soul. If the soul leaves the embryo in the womb it “dies” and a stillbirth is the result. Stillbirth means a dead child.. no soul.
If the soul didn’t enter until birth and the child in the womb was a tumor how can you explain eggs? If a bird lays an egg the baby bird develops, completely independently of the mother, within the egg.
The soul, the living force, must be in a fertile egg when a chicken lays it, otherwise how does it grow and change inside the egg? Clearly it has no connection with the mother.. You could develop an artificial incubator and put a fetus in there, it would still grow and develop into a child if you could give it the right nutrients. The womb is just like the nest for the baby birds…
>You say, “At one time you were within the womb of your mother.”
>I say, “Sometime in the future you will be in the grave.”
I will never be in the grave. My body will be in the grave. It will not be growing there, it will be rotting. You can’t compare the rotting body in the grave with the living, growing child in the womb. Every mother knows it. The child is living in her womb. Sometimes he’s happy, sometimes he’s upset. According to the Vedas after the seventh month the child is conscious in the womb, he is aware of his surroundings…
>Will you also be
>living in the grave?
The symptoms of the presence of the soul are growth and consciousness, both are present in the child in the womb, neither are present in the rotting corpse in the grave. Surely you can see the difference?
The presence of the soul in the womb of the mother is required for pregnancy. If there is no soul there is no pregnancy. The mother’s womb provides an environment for the child to develop and the child is nourished directly form the mother’s body.. But the child is a separate person. These things are very clear — anybody can see. If the soul leaves the body during the pregnancy, ie: the embryo dies, then there is a still-birth.
>Where were you a month before your mother became pregnant?
At the time of death, depending on our activities, the soul goes to different places. A sinful man has to go to the court of Yamaraja, the Lord of death, for judgment. He will most probably be sent to hell. A pious person can be promoted to heaven and we can also take birth on this planet again. If one is God conscious at the time of death he can go back home, back to Godhead. So depending upon what we deserve the soul is placed in the womb of the next mother. So one month before I was in the womb of my mother I was living somewhere else. “I”, the soul, am eternal. It is only my body that gets old and dies.
>The name of this newsgroup I read your posting in is
>”alt.BIBLE.prophecy.” The BIBLE in dozens of places describes
>LIFE as being identical with breath;
Yes life and the “airs” are intimately connected. There are different circles of air within the body called “chakras” and these different chakras are the life-airs upon which the soul sits. So there is a connection but these “airs” are present in the embryo in the womb of the mother…
>as breath as life; as starting with
>breath; with life entering with breath (even as through the nostrils);
>and with life departing with the last breath.
Generally at death, for an ordinary person, the “life airs” do leave through the mouth. But they are already there in the child in the womb..
In any case if, as in my original posting, you are within your mother’s womb and I kill the embryo, you are forced to leave that body and suffer for nine months in another woman’s womb. If I kill the embryo you can’t take birth. That is very inconvenient and painful for you and it is a very grave sin for me.
>This is defined and
>described dozens of times in the Bible. Many, many other spiritual and
>religious traditions describe breath as life, where the soul becomes
>conscious through the physical body between birth and death. There are
>many Buddhist sutras that talk of this.
>I assume that you are learned in the Hindu traditions, perhaps
>they are different than Judaic and Christian and Buddhist and other
>scriptures;
Your Christian Bible doesn’t allow you to kill children in their mother’s wombs! I am stunned that you present yourself as a Christian and at the same time try to support such a gross sinful activity by twisting the words of the Bible to suit your own ends…
>I am concerned that you have neither thought this through, read much of
>scriptures of world religions, or have much knowledge of the relation
>between consciousness and life.
I think you need not be concerned for my understanding, but you should consider your own. Nothing can grow and change without the presence of the soul, life. The child within the mother’s womb is a different person. Every mother knows it. As the pregnancy goes on the child starts to move, sometimes he is happy, sometimes he is upset, sometimes he is kicking his mother. Mothers know these things…
The womb is NOT a comfortable place and the child within the womb is fully conscious after seven months. He is aware of his surroundings, he knows why he is there and, if he is a little pious, he prays to God, “Please don’t let me forget You when I take birth…” However birth is a very traumatic experience for the child so he generally forgets everything of his stay in the womb.
> I’ve heard very much to the contrary. The womb is warm, and the
>liquids in which the fetus floats protect it from a great deal of
>shock.
Except, of course when the mother eats something too hot, takes some drugs, drinks alcohol… The effects are multiplied many times for the child in the womb. Would you like to be in that position now? All packed-up in such a small space with the mothers digestive fluids on one side and all the obnoxious stool and urine on the other. There’s plenty of germs there and sometimes even worms…
>That’s why many say birth is traumatic–the little one is
>leaving the warmth and protection of the womb for a cold, overly- >bright (to un-prepared eyes) world.
Birth is _VERY_ traumatic for the child. So traumatic, in fact, that the child forgets everything. Birth means forgetfulness.
>Also, the mother’s heartbeat
>was (at least, at one time), conjectured to be a very comforting
>sound for infants, since that is a sound they can remember from
>the good ol’ days in momma.
Obviously if he can remember his mothers heart-beat he was in his mothers womb before birth! It’s not a tumor there it’s a child!
Outside the womb is relatively comfortable and he is convinced he is the body, “I am an American man,” “I am an Australian woman…” So he dedicates his life to the pursuit of material pleasures….
>I have no memories of the womb, but most of my time in Kentucky is
>not very comfortable. It is RIDICULOUS to have to put up with 40-
>and 50-degree temperatures in May, for example, and I intensely
>dislike it when the temperature gets below the 40’s and worse. Maybe
>outside the womb is comfortable to many others, however.
Anywhere you live in the material world has it’s problems. We are not meant to be here! We are meant to be in the kingdom of God, in the spiritual world. If it was too comfortable here we might never want to leave.. So this world is a frustrating place. It’s designed to be like that…
If your mother kills your body in the womb you can’t get into the material world… You have to continue suffering in different mothers wombs until finally you find one who doesn’t kill your body!
>I just realized something…hmmm, your name, well…perhaps it
>explains your beliefs. However, not everyone agrees with whatever
>you use as an authority, which is evidently spiritual in nature.
>Your religious beliefs are yours, and I do not seek to tell you that
>they are wrong. However, they might be wrong for ME, and possibly
>for the person to whom you responded.
We accept the Vedas, the spiritual books from India. They contain absolute knowledge and are right for everyone. What I have spoken of in this post is common-sense anyhow, anyone can understand it.
It is a very dark and sinful age but I think you can understand what I am saying here…
>No real arguments there. Personally, I’m not sure this is a world
>into which children ought to be brought. It reeks a bit of meanness.
It is mean because we are misers. All living for ourselves. All trying to be God. No one can be happy this way. We can advance materially so much. So many computers, so many color televisions, nice cars… But these things will never make us happy or make the world a nice place.
We have to put God in the center and together we can use all of our different skills and individuality to serve Him. That way we can live in this world cooperatively and happy and after leaving this body we can go back home, back to Godhead. We won’t have to see the inside of another mother’s womb again!
Comments